並前往https://podcasts.apple.com/tw/podcast/ep145-%E5%8F%B0%E7%A9%8D%E9%9B%BB%E7%94%9F%E6%B4%BB%E5%A4%A7%E6%8F%AD%E5%AF%86-%E5%B7%A5%E7%A8%8B%E5%B8%AB%E7%9A%84%E8%81%B7%E6%B6%AF%E7%B6%93%E7%87%9F%E6%8C%87%E5%8D%97-%E4%BC%81%E6%A5%AD%E9%A1%A7%E5%95%8F-%E5%BD%AD%E5%BB%BA%E6%96%87-%E5%B0%88%E8%A8%AA/id1452688611?i=1000518571363