並前往https://podcasts.apple.com/tw/podcast/ep154-%E7%82%BA%E4%BA%BA%E7%9B%B4%E6%8E%A5-%E4%B8%8D%E6%98%AF%E8%AC%9B%E8%A9%B1%E5%82%B7%E4%BA%BA%E7%9A%84%E8%97%89%E5%8F%A3-%E5%A4%A7%E4%BA%BA%E9%83%BD%E8%A9%B2%E6%87%82%E7%9A%84%E5%BE%97%E9%AB%94%E8%AA%AA%E8%A9%B1%E8%A1%93/id1452688611?i=1000523211834