並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/%E6%99%82%E9%96%93%E7%9A%84%E5%A5%B3%E5%85%92%E5%85%AB%E5%8D%A6%E6%AD%B7%E5%8F%B2/060%E7%87%9F%E9%A4%8A%E5%B8%AB%E8%BC%95%E9%A3%9F%E7%83%8F%E4%BF%84%E6%B7%BA%E6%B7%BA%E8%AB%87%E4%B8%8B%E6%8E%A5%E5%90%8C%E6%A8%A3%E8%A1%80%E6%B5%81%E6%88%90%E6%B2%B3%E7%9A%84%E5%8F%A4%E6%97%A9%E6%9A%97%E9%BB%91%E9%86%AB%E7%99%82%E4%BA%8B%E6%95%85-9a0bRN7tLu3/