並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/%E8%91%97%E4%BD%9C%E6%AC%8Ax%E5%8E%9F%E5%89%B5%E6%88%91%E6%8C%BA%E4%BD%A0-%E7%B6%93%E6%BF%9F%E9%83%A8%E6%99%BA%E6%85%A7%E8%B2%A1%E7%94%A2%E5%B1%80-VO4rznYgIMZ/