並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/%E8%B3%87%E5%AE%89%E8%A7%A3%E5%A3%93%E7%B8%AE/ep37-5%E5%80%8B%E6%84%8F%E6%83%B3%E4%B8%8D%E5%88%B0%E7%9A%84%E9%A7%AD%E5%AE%A2%E5%85%A5%E4%BE%B5%E6%89%8B%E6%B3%95-rAH3TeVm0GD/