並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/%E9%98%BF%E9%AD%AF%E7%B1%B3lds/%E9%98%BF%E9%AD%AF%E7%B1%B3lds%E9%9B%99%E9%98%BF-ep13-%E5%B0%8F%E7%99%BD%E5%81%9A%E7%A9%BA4%E5%80%8B%E9%97%9C%E9%8D%B5%E8%A6%81%E7%B4%A0-dmGzPbY2w3h/